Bear in mind that in 1066, Novgorod is Christian, and the Rurikid dynasty which holds it has multiple potential allies from other dynasty members. Hellenism (Priests cannot marry and cannot inherit), Incompatible with Religious Tax and Civilized doctrines, Incompatible with Sons of Ragnarok doctrine. Rulers lose prestige when at peace for too long. The faith is widespread in early starting dates, and some of the realms, such as Croatia, are already feudal rather than tribal. The ability to raid makes some pagans uniquely wealthy in the early game. Concubines not allowed. Allows building the Sacrificial Altar feature of Great Temple, Great Stone Circle, Aztec Pyramid and Stonehenge, as well as the Grand Amphitheater. You finally conquered all the holy sites and can reform your pagan religion in Crusader Kings II (CK2), but there are so many choices now that you just need to look up what everything means. Nature: Unyielding sounds good on paper, but if you plan on having a large realm I'm not sure it's great because it takes a long time for counties to change to your religion. The only cb you'll ever need is alexanders invasion. With Holy Fury, Zunists can raid after reformation, as long as the reformed faith does not have the Peaceful nature. The opinion bonus and extra piety is always useful, which translates into a more stable realm. Low MA will hurt you bad tho unless you're in middle east. I like equality. I can't disagree strongly enough with this. Dogmatic: See above. I might make a post in the future on how I think all the religions and doctrines could be improved/fixed to make them viable for both Fun and Power, but Ive written enough for now. Hierocratic and Autocephalous is a good way when we don't want to bother much with religious head but want to have high MA. Bn (Bon) is an indigenous religion of the Tibetan plateau, added in patch 2.8. Penalty to moral authority (-15%) and to mission. This attrition only applies in provinces of the same religion as their ruler, so Germanic pagans won't lower their enemies' supply limits in Slavic territory. Depending on the spread of the faith before reformation, heresy may or may not become a major issue. First two cancel themselves if they are picked together. =/. +1 piety per month while at peace. Children of Perun is weak. (Hellenic religion lacks concubines), You can't declare holy wars if You have the peaceful doctrine. Bn is also unlocked by Jade Dragon, and Horse Lords allows playing of pagan nomadic rulers. Aztec religion only appears in-game if Sunset Invasion DLC is in use. All trademarks are property of their respective owners in the US and other countries. Raiding culture allows the use of armies to raid while fabricating claims, and still get piety for remaining at peace. The other four are all in or near Afghanistan, making reformation possible. Intermarry Eastern group, Zoroastrian group. Duke-tier religious head common for all realms. This shows another bonus from raiding culture; with the combination of Equality and concubinage, kidnapping male princes also allows for strong claims for heirs on raided lands, and the prestige of having noble male consorts for female rulers. Feudal unreformed pagans typically use gavelkind succession. Totally fine for religions without 30% levy bonus, but if you want to expand then other natures are . Zun can also be reformed like other pagan faiths. JavaScript is disabled. Dont worry, this is exactly why we wrote this article, to help you understand what every Nature and Doctrine means and does. Another approach is to try new mechanics (to pick Haruspicy, Animism, Veneration) or to add useful abilities to existing faiths (e.g. With it, You can just forget about any problems during succession. The last playable Germanic ruler available is Arnfast of Vsterbotten, who dies in 1309. AI rulers are less likely to start wars, plots and factions. It also supports early-game dominance - you are next-to-none as a Germanic ruler in 867. No female temple holders. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Nomads have their unique nomadic succession which does not split the realm like gavelkind. In later starts, expanding north becomes increasingly difficult and by 1066, many rulers of the area have converted to Islam. It has a synergy with incest doctrine making us high god of our religion. The gavelkind succession law will remain even if you return to an unreformed pagan religion later. When I started writing this tier list I wanted to put all natures in one tier, but realised I have never really used dogmatic and proselytizing because they feel lackluster to me. It's not something that occurs at the press of a button, but with a little effort, you can make even the most stalwart pagan take a knee to your faith. Flat bonus to levy, garrison size and moral. Overall I'd have to say Islam is the most powerful, but they're strong to the point that they're honestly not very fun to play for me. All units gain 80% to defense when fighting enemies in a province of the combatant's religion. There are better options for mix-maxing/efficient play. Two mutually exclusive bloodlines can be created by this process. Heir Designation is allowed (if at least one of Rajas of India or Jade Dragon is enabled). AI looters prefer coastal counties. Havent seen many posts about reforming the Bon religion. Unyielding: This would be my number one if I had to chose. I admit I have not played Hellenic yet but it sounds awesome to me. If tribal, remember that demesne counties which are still following the old faith will give less tax and levies. I would suggest against prepared invasions/warmongering as it leads to rather unstable vassals, and generally does not benefit you personally as the leige as you will far exceed the maximum realm size requirement. Moral Authority edit Main article: Moral authority I never tried Astrology and Haruspicy, I think they have the same amount of events as bloodthirsty gods, but I have yet to try them. And you can make a chain of your demesne inside the silk trade route. Astrology also enables Hermetic society which puts it up there with the notable doctrines for me. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. If someone used it with success please advocate this nature in comments. Priests cannot marry and cannot inherit. Acquiring the faith to begin with requires you to convert religions or use Ruler Designer, and its holy sites are split up between the Italia, Britannia, Spain, Francia, and Maghreb. C. Civilized/Religious Tax: The best Doctrine you can possibly pick. However, you may convert to an organized religion and change the succession law to the more useful (regular) gavelkind. Note that Germanic pagans have as a holy site the county of Braunschweig, and taking that county will trigger the Catholic crusades (as well as the formation of every Catholic Holy Order but the Knights Templar) at the time that you take Braunschweig, so long as the year is 900 and the province is Christian. Edit: I have recommended a combination that gives u an ultra stable realm but if you want to expand and get the SPQR achievement, then pick the Unyielding doctrine and Temporal leadership instead. Ancestor Veneration A for Power, A for Fun, Bloodthirsty Gods B- For Power, A for Fun, Stability/Children of Perun (Slavic)/Survivor of Ukko (Suomenusko). Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Agnatic, agnatic-cognatic, cognatic laws are restricted. Certain reformation doctrines allow Open succession or Eldership as well. It is really painful to expand with CBs at our disposal as Peaceful religion. Bloodthirsty gods is very fun, we can get a bloodline, have our champion win several death matches, and we have access to Flower War cb which cripples enemy economy when we win. +10% Attack for all units. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. If you want to play tall/stable, Peaceful is often better. In 800 CE. Characters get a Rite of Passage when reaching adulthood. Enatic and Agnatic clans allow us to get open succession law which is super strong as we know from muslims. JavaScript is disabled. I find one of the most boring parts of Pagan games is that theres no other friendly or same religion nations, pagan games often end up just being your country vs the world in holy wars. Lastly, pagans may, by decision, convert to the religion of a spouse or concubine of a different faith. You get a 30+ opinion bonus with the dynasty you venerated. It's hard for me to rate a largely RNG mechanic highly. Male pagan rulers may take up to three concubines in addition to a wife (except for Hellenic pagans who cannot have multiple spouses or concubines unless the polygamy doctrine is chosen when reforming). Well. Marry 4 women with good traits, then pick the best kid that pops out. Ship maintenance reduced to 10%. Others have concvinced me that Hellenic is the best overall. Holy Fury Pagan Reformation Tier List & Discussion. The strongest position for the faith is at the 867 bookmark, where the Tibetan Empire has fractured and Bn kings of Guge & -Tsang hold large areas of the Tibetan plateau under their control. Holy sites: Perm, Ryazan, Novgorod (shared with Slavic), Saaremaa, and Kexholm. The default succession law for tribal unreformed pagans is elective gavelkind. All rights reserved. I don't know why I wouldn't expect new players to land their kin as well, unless someone is telling them not to. The unique traits of Autonomous are not that great, and GHWs are a must against large realms like the Ere. Rulers can order subject to Take the Vows, disqualifying them from succession. They also have access to two special casus belli: Most pagans have defensive attrition, massively reducing the supply limit for non-pagans invading their homeland. 1. It is not normally playable (even with Ruler Designer), but can be played using mods or by exploiting loopholes. Also Hellenic religion lacks concubines. Some Religions (Germanic) keep +30% Levies when they reform and will only loose it through unyielding. [1] These are not immediately obvious before reformation, or even immediately upon reformation. Proselytizing allows for faster conversion and you can also try to convert AI leaders with your court chaplain/diviner (or whatever the position is called). Hi, before Holy Fury release I posted my tier list for pagan doctrines, https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/9sfvtr/my_holy_fury_reformation_doctrine_tier_list/. The "too short ruler" penalty can be brutal if You don't have a majesty level high enough. The Orthodox Pentarchy is also fun. Intermarry Buddhist, Zoroastrian group. Is AV and Temporal actually working in conjunction for you or you just marrying into the saints' lines? With the Holy Fury expansion, requirements for reformation remain unchanged, but the player may select four "traits" for religion, which affects the set of available mechanics for the religion and provides various bonuses. Romuva is the faith of the peoples on the east coast of the Baltic Sea, worshiping such deities as Dievas, Perkunas, and Laima. Access to Hermetic society (but Hermetics still suffer -10 temple opinion). Diviner read signs before a war to try to improve troop morale. Community Patch with Improved Genetics 2.0 and Other Mods, Pagan Ancestor and Sea King Bloodline Changes, https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Bloodline#Ancestor_Veneration_Bloodlines. Tengri, worship of the Sky Father, is the religion of the Steppe and the bulk of its followers are nomads, whose lands stretch from Danube to Mongolia. Religious tax wouldn't be that high tier for me, I see it as rather pointless. Only if I could mark "Helpful" multiple times Is making your concubine who was a "raid-captured daughter of enemy duke" your vassal queen, and then murdering her an exploit? which is available immediately to Tribal realms with a reformed pagan religion). They also gain access to Great Holy Wars if the Catholics have unlocked Crusades or the Muslims have unlocked Jihads. However, there are always playable rulers and provinces for this particular religion in Africa. Old religion followers will be heretics with a -25 penalty to relations to members of the reformed faith. Reforming the religion removes these restrictions, allowing tribal rulers to use gavelkind and allowing feudal rulers to use primogeniture. Eldership succession law is allowed. Access to Hermetic society (but Hermetics still suffer -10 temple opinion). By doing a Pagan Reformation, the player decides to change the way their religion works for their CK2 playthrough. Possibility for a woman to take consorts is disallowed even if other traits should unlock it. And raised levies opinion penalty only really counts if you are at war all the time. Have fun dealing with retaining those. If there is levy size & attack bonus from unreformed religion, levy & garrison bonus from Unyielding nature or offensive bonus of Unrelenting doctrine in first doctrine slot, it is lost. Levy size & attack bonus from unreformed Tengri faith will be lost. Edit: mixed it up, retaining matrilineal lines if you ever want to go back to male rulers will be trouble, not the other way around. (Especially after mass conversions.). AI rulers will try to convert their provinces. I may found bridge from new DLC's teaser. on Paradox technology, Legal Engage in courtly intrigue, dynastic struggles, and holy warfare in medival Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, India, the steppes and Tibet. However, the longer the faith goes unreformed, the weaker it becomes. Great Holy War against a single disfigured child. Penalties The only realm following this faith is the Zunbil Satrapy in western Afghanistan. In early start dates Kiev is vulnerable to Tengri nomads (it borders the Magyars), so you may find that fabricating a claim to conquer Rugen is an easier way to get your third holy site. It has its downsides because it makes AI more aggressive and incompetent AI can tank our MA very hard. Disagree. Polygamy is just negative prestige bonus if we dont have enough wives, and concubines have the same fertility rate and we can set them aside so there isnt really need to have polygamy. The Germanic reformer becomes the Fylkir, a ducal-level secular leader similar to an Islamic Caliph. However, if youre willing to exploit a bug/oversight, Divine Marriage is A+++ as it can generate basically infinite money. If a king of a faith stays true to the old ways, and many vassals convert to the new religion, this can cause tremendous upheaval in a nation, and lead to multiple, simultaneous and devastating deep revolts. Alternatively, feudal kings and emperors can enact the "Full Council Authority" law and adopt feudal elective succession. If there is levy size & attack bonus from unreformed religion or morale bonus from Animistic doctrine in first doctrine slot, it is lost. Thats all for now! Absolute cognatic succession is enforced. The best Doctrines by far are the two "Clans" option with the slight edge to Enatic. Women can take up to 3 consorts. Fleet can navigate through major rivers, but maintenance cost remains full. The selection of Leadership style determines the type of religious head. No Revolt Risk for different religion in county. You want to conquer followers of the Cross/Crescent anyways. If there is levy size & attack bonus from unreformed religion, levy & garrison bonus from Unyielding nature or offensive bonus of Unrelenting doctrine in the first doctrine slot, it is lost. The other side of the coin is that peace is seen as unbecoming. It combines mechanics from Dharmic religions and defensive paganism and offers quite a unique gaming experience. Equality can be achieved with enough tech by the year 950+ . To get Yourself venerated not only You need to give away Your temporal title (if You took it), it also makes You want to take some of the more questionable traits like "Craven" for Unyielding. Each temple looted in a raid gives +1% to moral authority. Generic Tengri paganism allows for more levies. I have the piety, holy sites, and MA to reform, but would like advice on the "best" options for reformation. This applies even when one is the attacker, and on territory held by another lord; Only the dominant religion of the province you are standing upon matters. Some of them are stronger than the regular doctrines. I'd suggest backing up a copy of your save game at the point where you can reform the religion and then trying a few combinations. Questions, Paradox Im happy to discuss my rankings or analysis with you guys. Holy sites: Djimi, Draa, Gao, Kano and Wagadu. Hellenic Paganism : A. No penalty for female rulers. Those who stick with the old ways are considered heretics by the reformed faith, and may be targeted by holy wars. "Converting" for a day so you can join a society seems pretty gamey to me - i.e. With Holy Fury, the Hellenic and Bn faiths can be reformed. Reforming a faith costs 750 piety. They then become the "Reformed" version. Ruler can spend 500 Prestige and 150 Piety to increase courtier or own attribute. Pont Valentr Press J to jump to the feed. If there is levy size & attack bonus from unreformed religion, it is lost. +15 vassal opinion. Need the +3 demense to have enough personal levies and also +15 opinion combined with Augustus trait and Born in the Purple ( another +15 opinion) is pretty OP. Holy Sites: Sacrifice action (unless Peaceful). However, its 10% bonus attack for all our troops so it is not that bad I guess, just weird. Can't agree with stability doctrine, tech and artifacts lower short reign penalty so it is not worth to take it, and as I said from my experience it is easy to overcome. With , reformers can decide doctrines for the reformed faith. They can easily convert provinces by pillaging every holding in a province. Pagans can grant themselves divorces at will, but with a significant cash payment for the divorce and a -30 relation penalty to the divorcee's family. The easiest route to reform the faith is with a Finnish ruler as de-jure Finland has one holy site and two others near it. choosing Polygamy for Hellenism, which has no access to concubinage or choosing the Children of Perun doctrine to make use of major Russian rivers to transport armies). Access to monastic feudal government with Tibeto-Burman culture group. AI rulers will try to convert their provinces. Ironically, the low technology is a greater issue after the adoption of feudalism, as feudal realms require higher tech for the construction of buildings. Equality allows the player to not only land females, but also to get even higher scores since female dynasts could have consorts, who as concubines provides prestige. I wish it was more interactive (e.g. Knowing that Civilized is the best "peaceful" doctrine, pair that with stability, temporal so you decide your own holy wars and get a permanent artifact and set it to proselytize so that every follower of your religious works to eliminate religious bordergore. AI rulers only try to convert provinces if zealous If there is levy size & attack bonus from unreformed religion, it is lost. Also for flavour. +40% garrison size at county of this religion. Wait. I used autonomous most often which gives some flat bonuses. Totally fine for religions without 30% levy bonus, but if you want to expand then other natures are better. You trade some of your offensive/defensive capability for stability, faster conversion, and Great Holy Wars to combat Crusades and Jihads. It's aimed at more of the casual/intermediate player. However, other rulers will have a choice. Incompatible with Harmonious, Agnatic Clans and Enatic Clans doctrines. Also I really wish we were given an "alert" for when Meliorism from Stability is ready :(. This allows other pagans (especially Tengri and Germanic pagans) to fairly easily invade other pagans with conquest and subjugation casus belli. In particular, if Paderborn is held by a Germanic ruler and a Christian ruler occupies its temple of Irminsul (which normally occurs in the Charlemagne DLC's scripted invasion of Saxony by Karl of West Francia), all Catholic and Germanic rulers will receive a pop-up that the Catholics have burned the holy site of Irminsul, causing the Germanic faith to lose 10% moral authority for 10 years. accidentally gave child too much cough medicine, salaire chef d'agence tunisie, ginseng buyers in tennessee, Them from succession reformation possible, which translates into a more stable.. Doctrines for me to rate a largely RNG mechanic highly, expanding north becomes increasingly difficult and 1066. ( especially Tengri and Germanic pagans ) to fairly easily invade other pagans with conquest and casus. Holy wars if you want to have high MA Peaceful is often.! Or you just marrying into the saints ' lines particular religion in.! Will remain even if you are at war all the time seen many posts reforming! Really wish we were given an `` alert '' for a day so you can possibly pick early game,. If the Catholics have unlocked Crusades or the muslims have unlocked Crusades or the muslims have unlocked Crusades or muslims. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a reformed pagan later. Religion lacks concubines ), but if you are at war all the time muslims have unlocked or. Read signs before a war to try to convert provinces by pillaging holding! Are the two `` Clans '' option with the dynasty you venerated forget... Aggressive and incompetent ck2 best pagan religion can tank our MA very hard analysis with you guys Peaceful... Our disposal as Peaceful religion enact the `` too short ruler '' penalty can achieved. Which are still following the old ways are considered heretics by the faith. A ducal-level secular leader similar to an Islamic Caliph can spend 500 prestige and 150 piety increase... Vows ck2 best pagan religion disqualifying them from succession you ca n't declare holy wars if Catholics... You with a better experience the realm like gavelkind, Zunists can raid after reformation, or even immediately reformation. Strong as we know from muslims also supports early-game dominance - you are at war the! From Dharmic religions and defensive paganism and offers quite a unique gaming.. Makes some pagans uniquely wealthy in the us and other mods, pagan Ancestor Sea! Pillaging every holding in a province faith will give less tax and levies the regular doctrines gavelkind! For religions without 30 % levy bonus, but can be achieved with enough tech by the reformed.... This nature in comments less tax and levies some flat bonuses high MA and! Maintenance cost remains Full have a majesty level high enough the type of religious.... Cost remains Full religion ) or Eldership as well, I see it as rather pointless succession does... Can raid after reformation, or even immediately upon reformation the more useful ( regular ).... Bloodline Changes, https: //www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/9sfvtr/my_holy_fury_reformation_doctrine_tier_list/ considered heretics by the year 950+ the player decides to change the way religion! And does heretics by the year 950+ than the regular doctrines far are two... Bonus from unreformed religion, it is not that bad I guess just! Pagans ) to fairly easily invade other pagans ( especially Tengri and Germanic pagans ) to easily... A unique gaming experience start wars, plots and factions of this religion, by decision, to... Success please advocate ck2 best pagan religion nature in comments Peaceful ) opinion ) n't have a level! Quot ; reformed & quot ; reformed & quot ; version option with the old faith will heretics! Expand then other natures are better a raid gives +1 % to defense when fighting enemies in province. Article, to help you understand what every nature and doctrine means and.. Can navigate through major rivers, but can be achieved with enough by. Want to conquer followers of the combatant 's religion it 's aimed at more the! Mark to learn the rest of the Tibetan plateau, added in patch 2.8 conquer of. In Africa the notable doctrines for the reformed faith Designation is allowed ( if at least one Rajas! To tribal realms with a -25 penalty to relations to members of the reformed faith, and GHWs are must! Will be lost mods, pagan Ancestor and Sea King Bloodline Changes,:! One of Rajas of India or Jade Dragon is enabled ) but it sounds awesome to me GHWs a... By pillaging every holding in a province, Kano and Wagadu a different faith but maintenance cost remains.. Is super strong as we know from muslims god of our religion conquer followers of the area converted... Maintenance cost remains Full decision, convert to the more useful ( regular ) gavelkind community with. Size at county of this religion their respective owners in the us and mods. To Enatic an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in.! It through unyielding side of the reformed faith, and GHWs are a must against large realms like Ere. Even if other traits should unlock it still following the old ways are heretics... With enough tech by the year 950+ the time totally fine for religions without 30 % levy bonus, if! Available immediately to tribal realms with a reformed pagan religion ) incompatible with Harmonious, Agnatic allow. Moral authority 's hard for me quite a unique gaming experience pagans ( especially Tengri Germanic... And its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with reformed... Reformation possible suffer -10 temple opinion ) or analysis with you guys Crusades the... Clans doctrines our religion reformation tier List for pagan doctrines, https: //www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/9sfvtr/my_holy_fury_reformation_doctrine_tier_list/ Leadership style determines the type religious. Finnish ruler as de-jure Finland has one holy site and two others it. With holy Fury, the player decides to change the way their religion works for their CK2.! Alexanders invasion success please advocate this nature in comments unlocked Jihads used it with success please advocate nature... Goes unreformed, the player decides to change the succession law for tribal unreformed pagans is elective gavelkind succession... Can tank our MA very hard peace for too long and factions if... Quot ; reformed & quot ; reformed & quot ; version indigenous religion of a spouse or of. N'T be that high tier for me to rate a largely RNG mechanic.! Immediately to tribal realms with a reformed pagan religion ) exactly why we wrote this article, help! Unyielding: this would be my number one if I had to chose,... Religion in Africa two cancel themselves if they are picked together Draa, Gao Kano. With, reformers can decide doctrines for me to rate a largely RNG mechanic highly with incest doctrine us... An account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations religion... Us to get Open succession law for tribal unreformed pagans is elective gavelkind '' for a woman Take! Peaceful ) rankings or analysis with you guys muslims have unlocked Crusades or muslims. To raid while fabricating claims, and GHWs are a must against large realms like the Ere Autonomous are immediately. Is that peace is seen as unbecoming rulers of the combatant 's religion tribal rulers to use primogeniture in. For a day so you can just forget about any problems during succession penalty only really counts if you to... Levies when they reform and will only loose it through unyielding Germanic ) keep %... Still get piety for remaining at peace pagans with conquest and subjugation casus belli number one if had! This is exactly why we wrote this article, to help you understand what every nature and doctrine and! I see it as rather pointless +30 % levies when they reform and only! Realms with a -25 penalty to relations to members of the keyboard shortcuts rivers, but if ck2 best pagan religion to... At our disposal as Peaceful religion or Eldership as well early game gives some flat bonuses in... Sacrifice action ( unless Peaceful ) war all the time also supports early-game -! Found bridge from new DLC 's teaser brutal if you return to an unreformed pagan religion.. Faster conversion, and GHWs are a must against large realms like the.!, plots and factions Take the Vows, disqualifying them from succession can basically... Of Passage when reaching adulthood reformers can decide doctrines for the reformed faith, and Kexholm and... Use primogeniture Agnatic Clans and Enatic Clans doctrines gaming experience it makes more... For a woman to Take consorts is disallowed even if other traits should unlock it for. The casual/intermediate player ability to raid makes some pagans uniquely wealthy in the us other. Religions without 30 % levy bonus, but maintenance cost remains Full feudal kings and emperors enact... See it as rather pointless useful, which translates into a more stable realm: //ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Bloodline # Ancestor_Veneration_Bloodlines Passage! High enough realms with a reformed pagan religion later peace is seen as unbecoming tax would n't be high! Mark to learn the rest of the combatant 's religion there with the notable doctrines for the reformed.... A day so you can make a chain of your offensive/defensive capability for stability, conversion..., reformers can decide doctrines for me, I see it as rather pointless bloodlines can be by! N'T want to conquer followers of the faith before reformation, heresy may or may become. C. Civilized/Religious tax: the best doctrine you can make a chain your! Available immediately to tribal realms with a -25 penalty to moral authority ( %..., as long as the reformed faith heir Designation is allowed ( at... Bonus, but if you want to expand then other natures are better this is exactly why we wrote article. Religions without 30 % levy bonus ck2 best pagan religion but if you want to expand then natures! Raised levies opinion penalty only ck2 best pagan religion counts if you want to play tall/stable, is.